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Thread: Sensodrive madness

  1. #1

    Default Sensodrive madness

    Long story short
    05 vtr sensodrive acting up
    Drove car in manual to Citroen for scan
    Came back as actuator issue permanent fault
    Citroen updated the transmission software.
    Now car will not start. Starting was Not ever a problem prior to visit to Citroen
    Car will not go through transmission reconfig cycle.
    Towed home
    Bought known good low kilometre actuator.
    Fitted replacement actuator
    Still will not start.
    Seems that since software update the car is fundamentally dead..
    I've checked most nearly internet entry including the C2 club ultimate sensodrive
    Any thoughts..?
    Thanks

  2. #2
    Member 2mario2 is on a distinguished road
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    Default

    Just take the car back to Citroen and let them fix it. Should have left the car at Citroen so they can repair it cause its their fault obviously if the car doesnt start after they done some updates on it

  3. #3

    Default

    Citroen claimed that the upgraded software was now not permitting car to start with faulty actuator.
    Implying !ower tolerances in the new software to component failure..
    The only way forward with them was proceding with them performing the replacement actuator
    If they had replaced the actuator and harness for $2500 as they suggested, car still would not have started

    All they would do is create a longer shopping list of repairs required. They were clueless
    They had good cop bad cop type of arrangement there in the service dept.
    Like I said long story short. Lots of details in between
    But it may be worth a try to rattle the general managers cage with a lenghty email and threats to spread the story internet wide..

  4. #4

    Default

    I guess what I was asking is that is it possible that fresh software could disable the whole car? Has it been known to happen.
    Can an update if incorrectly handled spike he the computer. Also where does the transmission reset procedure code live? Is it in the BSI or the transmission
    Computer? Because car is also stuck in Eco more. Maybe it considers the transmission reset an expendible process...�� Ironic as the Eco more is meant to ensure
    Car will start. Might try a hard wire start and see what happens
    Last edited by 2c2ornot2c2; 05-12-2017 at 12:16 PM.

  5. #5

    Default

    Citroen claimed that the upgraded software was now not permitting car to start with faulty actuator.
    Implying !ower tolerances in the new software to component failure..
    The only way forward with them was proceding with them performing the replacement actuator
    If they had replaced the actuator and harness for $2500 as they suggested, car still would not have started

    All they would do is create a longer shopping list of repairs required. They were clueless
    They had good cop bad cop type of arrangement there in the service dept.
    Like I said long story short. Lots of details in between
    But it may be worth a try to rattle the general managers cage with a lenghty email and threats to spread the story internet wide..

  6. #6

    Default Try this

    When the software update is performed the car needs to be on a battery charger as the actuators move througout the procedure and eat up all the power. If at some point the battery does not have enough power the procedure stops and you have a non- starter.

    So:
    Charge your battery to full (or get new battery)
    It is imperative that the car is on a charger for the update
    Do thupdate using lexia and follow the instructions

    You should have a working car after this if there is no other problem

  7. #7

    Default

    When i did my software update my charger was not set to its maximum and the procedure failed and the car would not start

  8. #8
    C2 Addict Advanced Poster ozVTR is on a distinguished road ozVTR's Avatar
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    Default

    Did you reset and install the actuator in accordance with this site? http://jimbutterworth.co.uk/5clutchactuator.htm

  9. #9

    Default

    Im fairly certain that the dealer did NOT have the car on the charger whilst upgrading the software. Hence it going into ECo mode,
    and then them getting the charger from somewhere else when I suggested a recharge. They also didn't say words to
    the effect of "thats strange that the battery needs a charge cos we had it connected during the update", which they
    would have had said had the charger been on during the process.

    Yes I tried the Jimbutterworth method. Nothing happened.. Thought it needed to be out of Eco mode maybe to allow transmission reset
    to occur...Clutching at straws..(bad pun I know!!)


    I even tried to hot wire the starter, with a wire straight from the starter solenoid to the positive battery terminal. Not a sausage..
    Tested the started solenoid for continuity and was fine..no open circuit.. !!!%#%$@$@

    Summary:
    It wont start (I think) because the ECU doesn't know where the actuator is.. ( "-" showing on dash)
    It needs to do the reset to make the ECU happy (I think)..
    The system has gone into Eco mode
    Needs car to start to get it out of Eco mode
    Cant seem to even hot wire the starter.
    Reset process may be programmed in the BSI which is in Eco mode..

    Wash, rinse and repeat...

    Looking to get a lexia, but first need an old windows laptop (XP 32 bit I believe)

    When I get the lexia, where do i get the software updates? I guess one prevents the lexia from wanting
    to communicate with PSA or are non official Lexias not policed?..so where do the updates live otherwise?

    It'd be a crying shame to have to part this car out if I can't get this solved..

    Thanks for input so far guys.
    I really appreciate it as now I'm flying blind

  10. #10

    Default

    Do you think using the lexia/pp2000 to learn the clutch position (as per Jim Butterworth) would work given the current situation
    Does the Lexia have options for initiating a clutch/transmission reset, as well as an option to get the car out of that dammed stoopid Eco Mode??

    Where's that pulling out hair emoticon..??

  11. #11

    Default

    Dang it..wrote a longer reply additional to above.. "needed moderator approval" .. is this normal?

  12. #12

    Default

    Ah HA!! Found a copy of my first reply post.....

    Im fairly certain that the dealer did NOT have the car on the charger whilst upgrading the software. Hence it going into ECo mode,
    and then them getting the charger from somewhere else when I suggested a recharge. They also didn't say words to
    the effect of "thats strange that the battery needs a charge cos we had it connected during the update", which they
    would have had said had the charger been on during the process.

    Yes I tried the Jimbutterworth method. Nothing happened.. Thought it needed to be out of Eco mode maybe to allow transmission reset
    to occur...Clutching at straws..(bad pun I know!!)


    I even tried to hot wire the starter, with a wire straight from the starter solenoid to the positive battery terminal. Not a sausage..
    Tested the started solenoid for continuity and was fine..no open circuit.. !!!%#%$@$@

    Summary:
    It wont start (I think) because the ECU doesn't know where the actuator is.. ( "-" showing on dash)
    It needs to do the reset to make the ECU happy (I think)..
    The system has gone into Eco mode
    Needs car to start to get it out of Eco mode
    Cant seem to even hot wire the starter.
    Reset process may be programmed in the BSI which is in Eco mode..

    Wash, rinse and repeat...

    Looking to get a lexia, but first need an old windows laptop (XP 32 bit I believe)

    When I get the lexia, where do i get the software updates? I guess one prevents the lexia from wanting
    to communicate with PSA or are non official Lexias not policed?..so where do the updates live otherwise?

    It'd be a crying shame to have to part this car out if I can't get this solved..

    Thanks for input so far guys.
    I really appreciate it as now I'm flying blind

  13. #13

    Default

    Just reading http://www.c2club.co.uk/showthread.p...Citroen-c2-vtr by Trek from a couple of years back

    Similar problems to me..

    Treks fix seemed to be swapping out an identical transmission ECU as the original ECU blew as a cascading fault from the actuator fault failure.
    Would a dead ECU show up on a lexia scan? silly question yes...
    Also in my situation, I suspect that the Citroen dealer new that the ECU had died but weren't sure if they had blown it when updating the software, hence their reluctance to
    rescan it!!! AND their not charging for the software update..
    Anyway all just more guessing

  14. #14
    Member Regular Poster wurlycorner is on a distinguished road
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    Default

    Where are you in the country? There may be someone near you that has lexia already and will offer to help.
    As for Eco mode, Not sure what triggers it on a c2. On the first Citroen's with the multiplex ecu setup (c5') it used to be a simple time based thing, which was adjustable via lexia. Not sure if in later ones it is actually voltage/battery health (as monitored by the ecu) driven. I'll plug Lexia into the Mrs c2 later and see what it says.

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wurlycorner View Post
    Where are you in the country?
    I am a little bit of a drive away in Australia!!

    If you think you have no support in the UK, Australia is much worse off.. The numbers of units sold here severely inhibits local support and back up
    Im just treating this as a giant new learning curve, but I would insatiably like to fix the problem..

  16. #16

    Default

    Car should still start or attempt to start if you bridge the main starter live and the small terminal on the solenoid , if it doesn’t then possibly this is a starter issue, so try that first , if it does that then buy lexia , stick the car on charge and leave it on charge throughout the process , connect lexia/diag and find the gearbox Ecu , clear all existing faults, then rescan it to see what remains ,

  17. #17

    Default

    Forget about eco mode. It does not stop transmission software update etc. I know as mine was in eco mode after a first failed attempt and then worked a charm second time round. It will go away only when the car starts again. It is worth investing in a lexia clone it will pay for itself over amd over again with this car.

  18. #18

  19. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 2c2ornot2c2 View Post
    Got a Lexia on the way
    Check that starter first as previously mentioned , if you link min pos on starter solenoid to starter pin then it should start , check all earth connections and makes sure their tight and clean

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trek View Post
    Check that starter first as previously mentioned , if you link min pos on starter solenoid to starter pin then it should start , check all earth connections and makes sure their tight and clean
    Yes I will. I'll try again an make sure i've got the right terminal on the starter..Seems a coincidence that the starter should fail, but its indeed possible..

  21. #21
    C2 Addict Advanced Poster ozVTR is on a distinguished road ozVTR's Avatar
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    Do You still have your old actuator?

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by ozVTR View Post
    Do You still have your old actuator?
    Happy new year everyone

    Yes I kept it..still not 100% sure that it was originally at fault. Very slightly different internals to the 'new' one. I took the motor apart and by all accounts
    It was ok. It had continuity across the poles. Not sure about how to properly measure the hall effect terminals..The actuator was in fully extended position..
    I tried using the motor guts with spiral pinion to wind it back. It worked the first time theni faffed with it and it snapped back EXTREMELY violently. So much so
    that I was greatful for not having lost a digit !!!!.. Bit scared to play and experiment with it again.

    Got my Lexia now. It's basically saying ECU is dead. But it also says that software has not been correctly installed. But then also says
    Software fully installed but not operating correctly.. A bit of a learning curve merry-go-round..Tied together with potential starter motor
    failure,. I need to learn how to use the Lexia diagbox to reinstall updates. That's IF my ECU is not fried and I can work out the download..
    Does the Lexia need to talk to PSA and if so is there a firewall/user account or should my Lexia / install disc have the updates on board??
    Last edited by 2c2ornot2c2; 20-01-2018 at 11:26 AM.

  23. #23
    C2 Addict Advanced Poster ozVTR is on a distinguished road ozVTR's Avatar
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    Sorry but Trek is the Lexia guru so hopefully he will chime in and help you on that front.
    I am asking about the actuator because I want to get my hands on one “in person”. The one on my C2 is working perfectly and so I don’t want to pull it out just to experiment.
    From all the info I have amassed the sensors are not “Hall effect” sensors. They are just inductive pick up’s. That may sound pedantic but it means that they are just a coil of wire with an iron core in the middle and it’s just a length of wire if you want to test it (them). They are used by the ECU to tell how fast the actuator motor is going and check if they are going in the right direction (?).
    Classic failure modes of the Sensodrive ECU are: 1) the drive motor in the clutch actuator rusting up and not rotating. This causes high current to flow in the “H bridge” FET’s (which control the motor) and the FET’s fail. 2) Corrosion on the carbon brush holders, causing them to loose contact with the commutator segments of the motor rotor. This causes the Lexia to throw up a “no continuity to clutch actuator” error (or something like that). Technically this isn’t an ECU failure J.
    However the rust/corrosion is typically caused by salting of the roads in the UK but they don’t do that here! The sensodrive system seems to work much better here because of that fact.

  24. #24

    Default

    So happy days yesterday and today.
    OzVtr showed me more clearly how to bypass sensodrive to actually start vehicle.. worked a charm and in so doing
    proved stater was still fine and got car out of the dreaded ECO mode.. Not only that but the Lexia appears to have now extra modality.
    In as much as, despite Lexia saying to replace the gearbox ECU once out of ECO MODE I can now proceed to reinitialise the gearbox and fresh
    actuator..So miraculously I got the all hallowed gear read out on the display replacing the "-"..I was like a kid at Christmas to see the display change
    whilst it went through its quite lenghty initialisation of all systems.
    The takeaway from this thread however is that it was quite possible that all my initial Sensodrive problems may well have come from a faulty
    accelerator pedal..
    Not 100% sure but a distinct possibility..
    The other takeaway is that Lexia needs an informed logic behind it. Certainly not an il informed junior Citroen dealership that has
    a rote style and approach to repairs ..
    Had I followed the dealers thoughts I would be down the cost of new actuator new cabling new starter and new transmission ECU..
    BUT all that aside I was very lucky to have Oz Vtr here in Oz to unpack and discuss stuff.

  25. #25
    C2 Addict Advanced Poster ozVTR is on a distinguished road ozVTR's Avatar
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    Very glad I could help.
    Have you pulled the accelerator pedal apart?
    You might be able to get it (the pedal) running temporarily to confirm the fault. My guess is the carbon tracks are worn out but you may be able to bend the moving wiper to get better contact.
    OOh so close, you must be able to taste it?! LOL!
    For those playing along at home, the accelerator pedal (in a 'fly-by-wire' system) is made up of two variable resistors. This is a 'fail safe' function in that the two resistor must agree for the engine management unit to proceed with setting the butterfly position in the throttle body. In this case one of the resistors has gone open circuit.

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