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Thread: Jacko's Rally Car Build

  1. #1

    Default Jacko's Rally Car Build

    Taken the plunge and started the build last week.

    Looking for a low mileage c2 vts motor and a load of answers.

  2. #2

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    So Iv'e got a fresh pedal box, 106 cup car 5 speed box (few issues there), taken all the guts out of the steering rack so non power steering, done a fair bit of welding, gonna be ditching the loom and making car and engine loom running on DTA S40 ecu, got some itb's and waiting for the cage to arrive.

    Few answers needed regarding shafts and hubs for the 106 cup gearbox along with clutch and linkage issues. Also the cup gearbox has a longer input shaft, fits ok, but thinking about whipping the crank out and putting a bearing in there to support the input shaft, looks fairly easy, see the last picture to see what i'm rattling on about.

    20170320_120830.jpg 20170322_224009.jpg 20170320_165230.jpg 20170324_154326.jpg 20170323_191249.jpg 20170324_154310.jpg

    Update, apparently a bearing in the end of the crank is not needed so that saves a bit of trouble.
    Last edited by unijacko67; 29-03-2017 at 07:58 PM.

  3. #3

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    Cage has arrived, ain't gonna be an easy one unfortunately !!!!!!!!!

  4. #4

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    Peugeot 106 cable clutch conversation to hydraulic.
    20170407_150126.jpg
    Attached Images
    Last edited by unijacko67; 07-04-2017 at 07:15 PM.

  5. #5

  6. #6
    Full Member cappuccino34 is on a distinguished road
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    You definitely don't want a spigot bearing, three bearings on a single shaft require absolute alignment, which can't be guaranteed.

    With respect to driveshafts, what hubs are you using and have you gone wide-track?

    Also, using a DTA (or any other aftermarket) you may be better off using the J4 (black connector) coil and not the grey connector C2 coil because the C2 one has different internal circuitry for the ECU to detect which cylinder is on TDC for sequential operation of the injectors.

  7. #7

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    Good call on the spigot bearing as I was thinking the same, but was unsure as the output shaft was machined for a bearing.

    Drive shafts, hubs ?????????????? I'm really in the dark here. Just to mention the 106 cup box i'm using has a different diff off set/alignment by about 15mm than the c2 box so regarding shaft lengths
    I'm not sure what advise will work. I'll need to go larger hubs and need to know what to use or find. I don't mind going wider track at this stage as I haven't done anything with strut tops.

    I would like to keep equal length shafts so looking for a picasso bearing carrier for the longer shaft?? not sure if that will work or if I'll be able to find or use a 2 piece oem shaft from anything , think I've found a short shaft that works, but not sure as motor is out at the moment.

    Thanks for the heads up on the coil as I hadn't even considered that, Cheers.

  8. #8

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    I should have introduced myself on the site.

    I'm basically new to the Citroen Peugeot codes, about 4 weeks in, so MA box BE3 BE4 & JP123456 and all the rest is taking a bit of getting my head around so forgive me if i'm talking crap, but I do need and appreciate any help and info I can get to help the build progress.

    I'm building a stage rally car, think I can sort out the rear wheel alignment via shimming, not 100% sure which shockers on the rear to use yet as I recon that's gonna be crucial, thinking of sticking to the gt springs then may be fitting some bump and rebound adjustable shockers . Until I know which hubs/uprights work along with shafts on the front (hopefully some oem) again I'm not sure what shockers to get.

    All help gratefully appreciated.

    Thanks

  9. #9

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    i guess best shocks would be bilstein b6 to go allarround (the fat-tube ones ), and i'd go with powerflex allarround again, if it isn't a vts, you should probably swap front anti-roll bar, since vts one is 21mm, others are thinner. for springs, i think eibach's improve quite significantly the handling compared to stock, without destroying the shocks. also, there are tutorials here for front and rear neg camber, i think for the front ds3 botom ball joint and steering joint?? that's how far my knowledge of the topic extends... for more detailed stuff, there are other people here.
    ***7x17 Wolfrace Hustle***windows tinted***Pipercross Viper***Remus rear silencer***custom rear lights***Eibach -50mm springs


    http://www.c2club.co.uk/showthread.p...update**/page3

  10. #10
    Newbie TallDave is on a distinguished road TallDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unijacko67 View Post
    Attachment 18053
    Done a bit on cage.
    New on here myself, just bought a C2 GT Rally Car to C2 Challenge spec.

    One thing I have noticed is that the Shoulder Belt Bar, which is welded betweeen the rear arch cage supports, is in fact to high when you check out the MSA specification for HANs compatible seatbelt mounts.
    The specification says they should ideally be level with the shoulders slots (presumably with the driver seated) and should not touch the seat slots with the driver/nav seated, as it stands mine appear to be way too high and the belts definately slope upwards to the mounting bar.
    The belts CAN slope down to their monting point by upto 20 degrees from the horizontal, which gives a certain amount of leeway for seat height adjustment I suppose?
    Now the car I have bought has done 3 events since it was built, interestingly the belts appear to slope up to the belt bar, hmmmm who'd be a scrutineer...!!

    I mention this just so you can be aware you might like to test fit your seat BEFORE you put in the rear part of the cage? After all there is no point in catering for the latest MSA safety requirements HANs included, then risking a possible compliance fail.

    Good luck with the build, I for one will be looking on with interest.
    Last edited by TallDave; 10-04-2017 at 05:45 PM.
    My other rally car is a Nova (upside down on a spit...)!

  11. #11
    Full Member cappuccino34 is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by unijacko67 View Post
    Good call on the spigot bearing as I was thinking the same, but was unsure as the output shaft was machined for a bearing.

    Drive shafts, hubs ?????????????? I'm really in the dark here. Just to mention the 106 cup box i'm using has a different diff off set/alignment by about 15mm than the c2 box so regarding shaft lengths
    I'm not sure what advise will work. I'll need to go larger hubs and need to know what to use or find. I don't mind going wider track at this stage as I haven't done anything with strut tops.

    I would like to keep equal length shafts so looking for a picasso bearing carrier for the longer shaft?? not sure if that will work or if I'll be able to find or use a 2 piece oem shaft from anything , think I've found a short shaft that works, but not sure as motor is out at the moment.

    Thanks for the heads up on the coil as I hadn't even considered that, Cheers.
    Then use 207 hubs. You'll need to buy some precision 50mm steel sleeve and cut a slit up it to wrap around the bottom of your C2 struts because the 207 has fatter dampers. You could maybe use 207 dampers but I'm not sure about their respective lengths.
    You need to chop the bottom off the picasso mount to clear the C2 cross member.
    You can use a 207 nearside shaft, and probably many others, Berlingo, 306 etc. The offside shaft use a Berlingo, 2000-2006 sort of one the sort that had the NFU engine with the BE gearbox.
    Use DS3 bottom ball joints.

  12. #12
    Full Member cappuccino34 is on a distinguished road
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    What's in the kitten BTW? Avatar is too small to see properly.. Millington ph2?

  13. #13

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    Thanks for the help regarding hubs and shafts, awesome help. Good call on the shoulder strap bars, great help.

    I've sold the kitten now, but I had a Honda s2000 in it. I had way too much work with that, had to make everything which was a pain.

    Here's the info on the Kitten http://kittenkitcar.co.uk

    race engine.jpg stroker.jpg FB_IMG_1441479449304.jpg IMG_20141217_134754.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXYbLt2S6dg
    Last edited by unijacko67; 10-04-2017 at 09:59 PM.

  14. #14

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    I am working on a be conversion solution to retain standard hubs but use proper be cv joints.
    I believe this will be the easiest solution and keep the steering and speedo happy
    www.trackspec.co.uk
    Citroen , Peugeot And Renault Performance And Motorsport Parts

  15. #15

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    On the 207 hub and ds3 ball joints does that retain near enough the same track?
    20170411_181122.jpg 20170411_181142.jpg

    Cage coming on nicely.

  16. #16

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    I quite like the rear shim kit's you make edbar, I'll be having some of those once i've checked out the rear geometry.

  17. #17

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    With ds3 ball joints I imagine the track will be widened a little. It how much I really don't know.
    I'm starting the be conversion very soon using stick hubs and probably ds3 ball joints.
    The shim kits on the rear axle really do make a huge improvement to handling and the bolt kit is inexpensive and a very safe and strong upgrade. If you need advice on what shims will be a good starting point get in touch before ordering
    www.trackspec.co.uk
    Citroen , Peugeot And Renault Performance And Motorsport Parts

  18. #18

    Default

    Cage coming along well. Got the holes through the front bulkhead for the cage strut support right first time which helps.

    20170414_134358.jpg received_1913280092218326.jpg
    Last edited by unijacko67; 14-04-2017 at 07:19 PM.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by cappuccino34 View Post
    Then use 207 hubs. You'll need to buy some precision 50mm steel sleeve and cut a slit up it to wrap around the bottom of your C2 struts because the 207 has fatter dampers. You could maybe use 207 dampers but I'm not sure about their respective lengths.
    You need to chop the bottom off the picasso mount to clear the C2 cross member.
    You can use a 207 nearside shaft, and probably many others, Berlingo, 306 etc. The offside shaft use a Berlingo, 2000-2006 sort of one the sort that had the NFU engine with the BE gearbox.
    Use DS3 bottom ball joints.
    Thanks for the advice on using 207 hubs. Is there a reason that they work well as not as common in the scrappy as 206 & 405 hubs/uprights?

  20. #20
    Full Member cappuccino34 is on a distinguished road
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    You can just use C3 diesel shafts if you're using a stock hubs and a BE.
    DS3 ball joints make it about 30mm wider track, 15mm each side, plus reducing camber by around 1.5 degrees (so if you are currently 0.5 deg pos it will end up 1.0 deg neg).
    207 hubs are geometrically the same as C2, but use fatter damper tubes, much bigger bearings (because, let's face it, C2 ones are puny) and bigger splines in the hubs so you can use bigger, stronger shafts.
    Last edited by cappuccino34; 14-04-2017 at 09:02 PM.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by cappuccino34 View Post
    You can just use C3 diesel shafts if you're using a stock hubs and a BE.
    DS3 ball joints make it about 30mm wider track, 15mm each side, plus reducing camber by around 1.5 degrees (so if you are currently 0.5 deg pos it will end up 1.0 deg neg).
    207 hubs are geometrically the same as C2, but use fatter damper tubes, much bigger bearings (because, let's face it, C2 ones are puny) and bigger splines in the hubs so you can use bigger, stronger shafts.
    Great, I've a fair bit to do yet so will keep an eye out for the 207 hubs. I've seen the data sheets for the Citroen Racing, tarmac, gravel ect and they seem to use 1.5- 2.5 degrees (got to be neg ?) so the DS3 ball joints will get me somewhere near and I can make adjustable top mounts to fine tune if needed at a later date.

    Cheers.

  22. #22

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    I've not even looked at the rear wheel alignment yet. What's the rear wheel alignment settings as standard although I will be checking it all out just to be sure and adjusting it with a few advised settings from you guy's ?
    Last edited by unijacko67; 14-04-2017 at 10:05 PM.

  23. #23
    Full Member cappuccino34 is on a distinguished road
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    Good effort with the Kitten, body moulds et al... A mate of mine has one with a turbo R1 in it and he's hankering after a lighter body for it... He needs a stronger gearbox first though,

    The C2 runs about three weeks toe in, which is why they give a little kick of oversteer when the loaded wheel hits a bump and momentarily loses traction, because the other wheel then steers it.
    Rear arm shims do make for easy adjustment, but I'd much rather take a tapered lick off the arm faces in a miller and keep everything square and flat myself.
    Also, you need to consider where the axle mounts move to if you space the arms away from the beam to reduce toe because the mounts separate much further than the shim thickness.

  24. #24

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    Very good call regarding the shims on the rear arms although I haven't even ripped the beam apart yet I understand where your coming from. My mate has a good milling machine so that may be the way forward, I always prefer the solution that reduces weight, lol.

    Got a Berlingo os drive shaft on saturday, but considering making a one piece shaft like the c2r2's use. I actually got the whole Berlingo strut as we couldn't shift the drive shaft nut at the scrappy, very interesting comparing the hub geometry C2 & Berlingo. interestingly they are the same geometry, but different,(i'll get to that bit later) hard to explain, but if bolted on with my c2 shocker the camber will be identical to standard c2 at least in a straight line, I can then fit DS3 bottom ball joints that take the standard camber of .5 pos to 1.5 neg which is where i'm sort of thinking about starting at.

    I'm also gona get some 207 hubs which apparently are identical to the c2 but with bigger drive flanges, but I'm guessing when the DS3 ball joints get fitted altering the camber by 2 degree's, this may have a compound effect to the camber as the steering turns.

    The difference in the Berlingo ones is that the strut collar on the hub is closer to the disc/hub and I can't work out in my head if this increases negative camber on the loaded wheel in a turn compared to the oem or decreases camber in a turn. If like I'm hoping, it has less effect on camber change in a turn they could be a good starting point???????????

    In short the standard c2 must gain negative camber in a turn and by increasing the static negative camber i'm just wondering how that's going to effect the camber with a bit of steering lock ????????????????

    When I get chance i'm going to compare all 3 hubs firstly recording oem static camber and especially with 20 degrees of lock applied then see what happens with the ds3 ball joints with 20 degrees of lock with c2 & 207 against Berlingo. Don't get the impression I know what i'm looking for results wise, I'm just interested to see how the Berlingo hub works in the turns. Just another point regarding Berlingo hub, not ideal as the steering arm is slightly different and will probably cause bump issues unless addressed, but I'll check it out first.
    The reason I'm doing all this testing is that the c2r2 strut seems closer to the hub/disc (only by looking at pictures) than the c2 hub.

    Sorry if that doesn't make sense, hard to explain as i'm no expert, just interested to see what happens to the geo.
    20170415_164737.jpg 20170415_163236.jpg 20170415_163338.jpg received_1913280092218326.jpg

    Ps I realise its the castor which alters the camber in the turn, but the hub off set to the strut suerly must also have an effect.
    Last edited by unijacko67; 16-04-2017 at 11:45 PM.

  25. #25
    Full Member cappuccino34 is on a distinguished road
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    Only the caster and the KPI affects the change of camber when the lock turns. The wheel steers around the axis (line) drawn between the centre of the strut top bearing and the centre of the bottom ball joint ball.
    More caster increases negative on the outer wheel and increases positive of the inner wheel.
    More KPI adds positive camber in both directions away from straight ahead, so KPI is best kept to a minimum if you are messing with that stuff. That's why so many modern (or old Japanese) cars have the hub bent around over the top of the tyre and the top balljoint further outboard. Further to that are cars with split top wishbones (two links) where the instantanious centre (which is effectively the point in space about which the wheel steers) is where the lines between the link centres intersect.
    With a stock bottom arm and strut tops in the stock position, the caster and KPI remain stock. With a DS3 bottom ball the KPI increases, which isn't ideal, but the static camber increase more than makes up for the camber lost due to KPI change.
    If the strut axis is at a different angle then that could affect static camber, depending how it's angle is relative to the flange. What WILL change if the strut axis is different is the roll centre. Whether that ends up being desirable or not depends how the roll centre and axle-carried C of G (of the sprung mass) move in relation to each other, and if the front/rear balance is maintained, or can be re-balanced by a spring rate or roll bar stiffness change.
    What you are looking for is for the roll-axis inclination to be a suitable aspect ratio to the ground plane with the C of G axis inclination.
    If you follow me?

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